The John Stoll Case

The Michael Jackson Case


This Government Agency is OUT OF CONTROL!

North Carolina Case

(In red are characteristics similar to the Selby case related on "Notes on Domestic case" this site).


The Asheville Tribune, July 23-29, 2003 (Front page- headline):

N.C. Supreme Court Rules Against DSS

Judges restrain agency's involuntary interview powers

The North Carolina Supreme Court last week told the Department of Social Services (DSS) that they had overstepped their authority when they tried to interview the two-year-old daughter of a Cleveland County couple.

Jim and Mary Ann Stumbo of Kings Mountain were visited in September 1999 by county social workers because of an anonymous phone call (alleging) that the daughter had run through their yard naked while chasing a kitten. Apparently an older brother had quickly returned the girl to the house. The Stumbos refused to allow the social worker to interview the girl or any of their children.

DSS took the Stumbos to court to force the interview. The lower court sided with DSS, but the Stumbos appealed to the North Carolina Court of Appeals, which also found for the DSS.

The Stumbos then took their case to the NC Supreme Court, which unanimously sided with the family, saying that there was not enough evidence to have warranted an involuntary interview. *(The Selby's hope this will be true with the Tennessee Supreme Court in their case as well)

The decision from the state's highest court could have a restraining effect on the power that county DSS agencies have been using in North Carolina. While some say that the decision is very narrow, and possibly has only a direct implication on this case. a closer examination of the judges' decision reveals that the court had concerns that Cleveland County DSS overreacted and could have made a simple phone call to correct the situation.

"In this case. a phone call to the parent by CCDSS (or by the anonymous caller) alerting the parent to the child's unsupervised presence outside potentially could have resolved the issue." said Judge Robert Orr in his decision. Orr went on to reprimand the agencies for taking so long to contact the family, "Certainly, a call to the parent would have been a far more logical step toward protecting the child than the delay, unavoidable or otherwise, of approximately two hours to visit the home."

However, DSS was not the only state entity that Orr singled out to be at fault for allowing the Stumbos' case to get as far as it did in the court system with such a lack of evidence.*(!) "There is no information either in the record or in the transcript of the hearing as to how long the child was outside unsupervised; the character of the surrounding area; or whether the child had ever been outside, naked and unsupervised before," said Orr. "Upon being called as a witness, James Stumbo [husband and father of the family] attempted to explain what had happened, but the trial court sustained opposing counsel's objection to Mr. Stumbo's testimony. The trial court instructed Mr. Stumbo to confine his testimony to events that transpired at the time Ms. Lowery arrived at his home. All further evidence and the record before us relates solely to the effort by Ms. Lowery to interview the Stumbos' four children in private and the Stumbos' refusal to allow her to do so."

Orr then pointed out that without any further substance for the case, DSS should have been left without an argument. "Thus, without ever determining whether there was sufficient evidence of 'neglect' to trigger the investigative requirements... [for] this case [to] proceeded to a statutorily mandated investigation and legal measures to prohibit the parents' interference with an investigation by the CCDSS." He went on to clearly state that DSS did not have the right to exercise their extensive power. "Thus. Under the specific facts of this case, we conclude as a matter of law that the anonymous report was insufficient to invoke the extensive power and authority permitted by the General Assembly to the county departments of social services," (Orr wrote).

Stumbo case, not the first time.

Reporters with the Tribune have reported on several Buncombe County DSS cases where the evidence was just as light as in the Stumbo case. One such incident involved the Brimer family. The story was covered by this reporter in articles in the July and August, 1996 issues of the Mountain Sentinel, a monthly newspaper that was distributed throughout Western North Carolina.

George, 34, and Shari, 33, Brimer lived at 95 Vandalia St. in West Asheville with their eight children. Their house was on a dead end street about three or four houses from the end. The West Asheville couple was hit by DSS with allegations of child neglect apparently made by an anonymous tipster.

In a petition filed May 10, 1996 in District Court, Juvenile Division, the Buncombe County Dept. of Social Services alleges that the children of the Brimers were unsupervised and allowed to "climb on the roof of the house with a ladder, and run into the street chasing dogs."

Social Services' investigation first surfaced on April 12, 1996 when two casually dressed investigators appeared at the Brimer home and asked for a private interview with the children. Brimer arrived home to find his wife, Shani, talking to the investigators outside their home. She had refused to allow them inside.

The Brimer children then ranged in age from three months to 10 years and included six boys. Brimer acknowledged that the older children did climb trees on their nearly one acre of yard. Their dog, Katie, also got loose, and the children chased her into the street. Brimer said he told the social workers about these incidents and when he also allowed his children to retrieve a toy from the roof.

Brimer, a Desert Storm veteran who invaded Iraq with the U.S. Army's 24th Infantry, said the charges were "ridiculous," and he refused to allow the investigators to enter his home or speak to his children. Concerned that social services might attempt to take custody of his children. Brimer acknowledged sending them out of town.
"This organization (DDS) thinks they're so much above the law." he remarked. Until June 12. 1996, Brimer and social services exchanged telephone calls. At one point, Brimer proposed to allow DDS investigators to meet with his children at a neutral place, if his pastor could be present. Brimer said DDS refused his offer. On the advice of his attorney, Carol Andres, Binmer ignored notes and phone calls from the Buncombe County Sheriffs Department regarding the summons because he was not legally obligated to respond, he stated. According to Brimer, the DSS attorney Charlotte Wade had admitted this was an incredibly weak case, but Wade told the Mountain Sentinel that "confidentiality prohibits me from making any discussion whatsoever about any case."

Neighbors of the Burners had strong opinions about the family. "From what I've seen there's no abuse," commented Phyllis Ray. She called the children "very well-behaved." Ray's husband, Doug, is reported to have told clark earlier that the Brimer children were the most well behaved children he'd ever seen. Concerning the DDS charges, Garnette Cowan, 83, said, "I think it's a bunch of baloney...whoever prompted it (the investigation) is just as sneaky as can be."

Brimer's attorney Carol Andres filed a motion for dismissal on the grounds that the court summons did not name the Brimer children specifically or give their ages, as required by North Carolina Law. On July 19, 1996, during court, Juvenile Court Judge Rebecca Knight denied the motion for dismissal and ordered Brimer to give the names and ages of his children, allow social services investigators to privately interview them and allow investigators access to his home.
Brimer was not present in court, but his attorney called Brimer to inform him of Knight's decision. Attorney Andres told Brimer she would file an appeal. The same day Brimmer again sent his family out of state and had decided to leave North Carolina for good. Brimer remained in Asheville to work out a two-week notice with his employer. "I'm having to give up the best job I've ever had in order to protect myself and my family from child protective services," Brimer said as he met with a reporter from the Sentinel at a local motel. "I hate to go. But unless the appeal works I plan to leave the state," he stated. Brimer explained that anonymous tipsters could use DSS more as a weapon than out of concern for the safety of children. "When someone gets mad at you all they have to do is call DSS and accuse you of child abuse or neglect and you're guilty until proven innocent." Brimer said.

Judges didn't address Constitutional question, but one says they should have - Judge Orr made it clear that this recent decision handed down by the court did not address any Constitutional questions as the Stumbos and their lawyer, Jim Mason, had hoped. "Throughout the litigation of this case the parents have cloaked their argument in the context of Fourth Amendment constitutional grounds" writes Judge Orr. "As we have often noted, 'the courts of this State will avoid constitutional questions. even if properly presented, where a case may be resolved on other grounds.' This is just such a case." However, at least one of the NC Supreme Court justices acknowledged that the case had Constitutional ramifications.

"Perhaps most important, this case implicates well-established and closely guarded constitutional rights," writes Judge Mark Martin. Judge Martin went on to say "The majority's analysis delays needed resolution of the constitutional questions briefed and argued by the parties." Martin said that in abuse and neglect cases handed by DSS that the "government must show probable cause as a prerequisite to removal of a child in an emergency, it would seem imperative for this Court to consider the constitutional standard applicable to home entry and nonconsensual interviews during non-emergency investigatory protocols conducted by the government."

Martin also reinforced the long held notion that the "...burden of proof [is still] on the government" a rule that many who've dealt with the juvenile court system would say that lower court judges have forgotten. Take the ongoing Buncombe County case of John and Sue Dhermy, whose daughter was taken from them after Sue was accused of burning a child, but the allegation was never proven in a court of law. "Put simply, the question of whether the State may lawfully enter a private residence as part of an investigatory protocol in the absence of any fact-specific justification is left unanswered," concluded
Judge Martin.

Still, Stumbos' Attorney Mason, who is a Litigation Attorney for the Virginia-based Home School Legal Defense Association was happy with the court's decision. "This is a great victory for parents in North Carolina. The decision means that families will be protected from aggressive social workers who are acting solely on the basis of anonymous tips," said Mason.

Story filed hy Clint Parkerfor tlic Tribune



The Following "LINKS" information is compliments of copied by assumed permission to this site on 11-28-03 (Currently awaiting official permission)


"NOTE: URLs of webpages exposing child `protective` system practices
WARNING: some of the urls contain shocking or heart-wrenching stories, not suitable for everyone. Our feeling, however, is that the problems they highlight are badly in need of exposure. To the best of my knowledge, all the links here are up to date. They were checked mid June 2001, and I believe are all helpful or informative. No other endorsement is ventured. If you find a broken link, or have a story that needs to be told, or suggestions for reform, please email Robin (see bottom of this page).

The National Coalition for Child Protection Reform began at Harvard in 1991, and is still putting finishing touches on its website. They have a great deal of information for those wishing to conduct research.

Government abuse of citizens - ripping children from homes that love them is the most vicious thing that government do-gooders can perpetrate against citizens. Only rarely is such intervention reasonably called for. The present system is collossally expensive, but the greatest cost is not the billions in tax dollars but the pain and heatbreak and emotional abuse to children and families. Far less disruptive alternatives are available, and must be pursued. Good caregivers must be supported, not undercut. Cost-efficient support programs for intact families must be adequately funded. Stop kidnapping children.

An excellent expose' - that says just what CPR says about the evils of America's child protection industry. This site was made known to CPR in January, 2000.

The Dupuy Case - the nationally famous story (of false accusation and the tyrannical power of one malicious social worker) that appeared on Dateline.

Children on slabs - a brief but shocking article by Linda Haley that decries the widespread abuse and even documented cases of needless deaths of children in foster care. It's not enough to blame it on the emotional "pathology" of the child victims. The Foster care system is very much to blame.

Another expose' - saying Children's Services is out of control and is a threat to your family. They offer a legislative history, advice, and a web-ring for fathers' rights.A site that does just what it says the watchers. Who's watching our Nation's Child Protective Service Agencies? WE ARE! CPS Watch is a watchdog agency that monitors the unlawful actions of CPS. We document the money trail, expose the abuse of children while under state care, expose the illegal removals of children from their loving parents and more.

If you thought foster care is "safe" for children - think again! This news article scratches the surface....

Suzanne Shell's website - If you are in Colorado and need advice, she's the one to contact. Just please be respectful of her time, she's trying to lead a semi-normal life, in addition to helping dozens of people.

NASVO - This is the homepage of Victims of Child Abuse Laws (VOCAL). The site offers advice for dealing with Children's Services, law enforcement, and attorneys. Material on this website is scary. You probably will have trouble believing it, at first. Jane and I found the material all too true. The site offers the a variety of useful web links. VOCAL

False Accusations - More advice on how to deal with false accusations of abuse, from Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance.

A Team (legal) - A merry band of defense experts for families wrongly accused. I haven't used their services. But, they have a very well done web site.

Preble Law - Another merry band of defense experts. They have an interesting win on their site.

Youth Law Center - A group that negotiates, and if necessary, litigates, for children's rights in the child welfare system.

Center for Individual Rights -- A merry band of attorneys. They sue for civil rights all the way to the US Supreme Court. If you are poor, and your case is interesting, and you really are innocent, these folks might help.

Faith and Justice [.com - A site that points out the link between justice and belief in God. Links to many organizations.

Case Histories - Children's Services horror stories from a law firm that represents families.

Heartbreaking story -- of a little baby who need not have died. Website could use some work.

This IPT site contains a number of clinical expose's of Children's Services with plenty of stats and quotes.

An unsympathetic history of child abuse industry.

Another unsympathetic history and current practice of the child abuse industry, with plenty of footnotes.

Save Your Children - New York

Child Protector Watch - This web site has been created for the specific purpose of protecting children and their parents from the excesses of the "child protectors," who use them in their quest to remove control of your children from you so they can teach them to be good (forced) altruists and socialists from an early age. Hitler and other despots knew the value of getting the children young and teaching them what they wanted them to think. This is called "conditioning," and it is happening to your children,now.

Childrens Rights Advocacy - For every child who has suffered the confusion, emotional trauma and inner conflict caused by the negligent and sometimes corrupt acts of the people in the "INDUSTRY" of protecting children who are actually protecting their own reputations, careerism, and financial interests instead of the children they are sworn to protect.

False Allegations - lots of links and horrifying info.

Kids Rights to be with Mom and Dad

Families in Crisis - No one understands better than another parent who has lived the same nightmare.

Child Protection Reform - America's child protection system has immense power. It operates in secrecy. It enjoys total immunity. Parents and children have few meaningful rights. Under current law, the system created to protect children has become America's greatest source of family and child abuse. It desperately needs substantial reform. (this site features Real-audio and written testimonials)
A detailed discussion of the problems with Utah's child welfare laws is articulated very well by the Hon. Arthur G. Christean, a retired Utah juvenile court judge in an article entitled, "The Child Welfare Reform Act of 1994: Is the Cure Worse than the Problem?"

Throughout America, an average of 3,000 children a day are stolen from their homes and placed in foster care to fuel a multi-billion dollar money-making machine. Utah’s system is typical, and provides a case study in both the tactics of the government and how individual citizens can defend themselves and their families. To you, your children are your life. To the thousands of caseworkers, supervisors, therapists, judges, and doctors whose salaries are paid by this machine, your children represent job security. Fresh meat. Despite what they may have told you, your case is not a weird exception. They’re doing this to everyone.

Silverstorm's Sanctuary , Here is my own story - regarding Gestapo CPS. Then we have those who wish to use the system as a weapon to harass and hurt those they dislike. Complaints can be made anonymously and the fact it is made anonymously in no way reduces the complaint's legitimacy in the eyes of CPS whose employees are already inclined and trained to think the worst of parents and guardians anyway. You see, CPS is not interested in legitimate complaints... they are just interested in any complaints they can get. Well, if you actually look at what is done to children, parents, families and society in general by this extremely fascist and un-American agency (or set of agencies) and the unconstitutional so-called 'Family Courts' you will come to the realization that 'protecting children' is the last thing on the lists of these people. What they are interested in, quite literally, is total and absolute control of every aspect of every life. Privacy is anathema to these people.

Brian and Ruth Christine - This Bible-believing, sincere Oregon couple face sudden and unjustified harrassment by the child protection agencies. Their beautiful children are removed. It is nothing short of government child theft. - Every day, some 3,000 kids in the U.S. are taken from their families by CPS workers who claim they are only trying to help the family. Do not let these workers fool you. They are not your friends, nor do they want to help. They want to get inside your home so they can build a case against you.

Therapist complicity in the kid stealing racket - these "therapists" are the big winners in the unholy alliance with the child saving bureaucracy. Posing as angels of light, this new priesthood is a Lucifer clothed in therapeutic "goodness."

How does one come to believe they had been sexually abused, are MPD and raised in a satanic cult, when none of that ever happened? Read the “Candy Cane and the Bear”. “Inside Therapy” goes through the process of therapy with Steven Winn. An unholy wizardry.

Parents standing up and fighting for the right to be a family without government harrassment. [kstrucking - can you imagine?]

Online resources exposing CPS and child-protective excesses, error, ineptness, railroading, and outright abuse, and countless cases of violations of "due process" or total breakdown of fairness safeguards, and where are the checks and balances?

Debbi DeSisto tells of her daughter's being accused of causing a subdural hematoma through the use of marijuana early in her pregnancy. [A Personal Journey]

This is the story of one family's fight against a power mad DCS worker and other inept and corrupt people within the system. This page describes what occured during the illegal taking of our children, their return home, and our pro se attempt to sue those responsible in Federal Court. [Dana Phillips]

Email Sheila Vives - Family Rights Activist
Email Robin Shepherd - Foster.Care.Abuse.Network - vigilance is our watchword


Suggested follow-up reading:(CLICK HERE)For:

"Out of Control" by Brenda Scott "Who's watching our child protective agencies?"

Other cases:


The John Stoll Case (External Link)

Convicted on poor, unreliable information (as in the tragic "Selby Case")

and finallyReleased after 20 years in jail!

"FRAME UP" This case involves John Stoll, *Grant Self, Margie Grafton, and Tim Palomo. They were accused of molesting a group of male children, over a period of several months in the middle 1980's. The alleged molestation occurred in Kern County, California, where the defendants lived. In this trial the state's evidence was almost invariably faulty, fallacious, or irrelevant. Yet this evidence was allowed to be presented in the court room. And the four defendants were convicted and sentenced to long prison terms. Since that time three of the convictions, (Margie Grafton, Tim Palomo and John Stoll) have been overturned and Self still remains in prison based on the same faulty evidence.

(Parapharased from above link by asssumed permission)

*7-5-06 A Response was received this date from a victim of Grant Self testifying that he was indeed molested by him, and that "Self" should, and deserves to, remain in jail.


Parents far from perfect, but state complicit in abduction

(Published and above title by Citizen times Asheville NC 1/28/05)

Most people automatically agree that the North Carolina couple that had to physically take back custody of their children are monsters and to be feared. Well there are a lot of suffering parents that would give this couple a big "thumbs up" for their bravery in getting their children away from a real out of control monster- states social services systems.

They take children too fast, keep them too long, (while making it extremely difficult for parents to get them back if they ever do at all)- and a lot of parents are realizing this, and know that such radical actions may be the only way to ever see their children again.

I don't approve of drug use etc, however I applaud this couple for their love and their demonstration of doing what they felt they had to- to fight for their rights for their children.

(Following Not part of above editorial but included with letter to Greta Vanshustern, Fox News)

You can go ahead and tell the FBI that I would help them if I could- but so would a lot of others too! PS: My x-wife and I personally understand how these parents must feel, but they're evidently braver than us. I hate to think that we do not love our children as much as they? God forbid.

Jonathan Selby, Asheville, NC


Why isn't the state doing something about this! (Talk about corruption...

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 Email to Focus on the Family and Citizen Times, Asheville NC

Rap Vularity!

Brother- these are the lyrics that the a 13 year old boy was playing and singing too i happened to overhear- these are readily available for download to whomever (with no letters blanked out)- iv heard enough- imagine somehow that it gets worse! ..and this is not horrendous?! God spare our youth and help us to know what we can to do about this epidemic scourge.

"Wait a minute man Ay check this out man It was this blind man, right? Man check this It was this blind man, right? He was feelin' his way down the street with this stick, right? Ay, he walked past this fish market You know what I'm sayin'? He stopped, he took a deep breath, he said Woo, good morning ladies You like that s--t man? Ay, I got a gang of that s--t, man I tell you what My man on the guitar Ay, fool on the drums Everybody just crowd 'round the mic I tell you all these m-----f----n' jokes I got man So first I'm gonna start it off like this Help me sing it home boy, come on Said colt 45 and two zig-zags Baby that's all we need We can go to the park after dark smoke that tumbleweed As the marijuana burn We can take our turn Singin' them dirty rap songs Stop and hit the bong like Cheech and Chong It still takes from here to Hong Kong So roll, roll, roll my joint Pick out the seeds and stems Feelin' high as h--l flyin' through Palm Dell Skatin on datin rims So roll, roll the 83 Cadallac Coupe Caville If my tapes and my cd's just don't sell I bet my Cavy will Well it was just sundown in a small white town They call it eastside Palm Dell When the Afro Man walked through the white land Houses went up for sale Well I was standin' on the corner sellin' rap CD's when I met a little girl named Jan I let her ride in my Caddy cuz I didn't know her daddy was the leader of the Ku Klux Klan We f----- on the bed F------ on the flo' F----- so long I grew a f---in' afro Then I f----- to the left F----- to the right She s-----d my d---k 'til the s---t turned white I thought to myself Sheeba sheeba got my a-- lookin' like a zebra I put on my clothes and I was on my way Until her daddy pulled up in a Chevrolet So I ran, I jumped out the back window But her daddy, he was waitin with a two-by-fo' Oh, he beat me to the left He beat me to the right The m-----f----r whooped my a-- all night But I ain't mad at her prejudice dad That's the best d--n p---y I ever had Got a bad of weed and a bottle o' wine I'm a f--k that b---h just one more time Colt 45 and two zig-zags Baby that's all we need We can go to the park after dark smoke that tumbleweed And as the marijuana burn We can take our turn Singin' them dirty rap songs Stop and hit the bong like Cheech and Chong It still takes from here to Hong Kong So roll, roll, roll my joint Pick out the seeds and stems Feelin' high as h--l flyin' through Palm Dell Skatin on datin rims So roll, roll the 83 Cadallac Coupe Caville If my tapes and my cd's just don't sell I bet my Cavy will I met this lady in Hollywood She had green hair but d--n she looked good I took her to my house Cuz she was fine But she whooped out a d---k that was bigger than mine I met this lady from Japan Never made love with an African I f----d her once I f----d her twice I ate that p----y like shrimp fried rice Don't be amazed at the stories I tell ya I met a woman in the heart of Australia Had a big b--- and big t-----s, too So I hopped in her a-- like a kangaroo See I met this woman from Hawaii Stuck it in her a-- and she said I E Lips was breakfast P---y was lunch Then her t-----s busted open with Hawaiin punch Met Colonel Sanders wife in the state of Kentucky She said I'll fry some chicken if you just bump me I c--- in her mouth It was a crisis I gave her my secret blend of herbs and spices Colt 45 and two zig-zags Baby that's all we need We can go to the park after dark smoke that tumbleweed And as the marijuana burn We can take our turn Singin' them dirty rap songs Stop and hit the bong like Cheech and Chong It still takes from here to Hong Kong I met Dolly Parton in Tennessee Her ti------s were filled with hennessy That country music really drove me crazy But I rode that a-- and said "Yes, Miss Daisy" Met this lady in Oklahoma Put that p---y in a coma Met this lady in Michigan I can't wait 'til I f--- that b---h again Met a real black girl down in South Carolina F-----d her 'til she turned into a white albina F----d this hooker in Iowa I f----- her on credit, so I owe her F----d this girl down in Georgia Came in her m---h now I thought I told ya Met this beautiful sexy ho She just ran 'cross the border of Mexico Fine young thang said her name's Maria I wrapped her up just like a hot tortilla I wanna get married but I can't afford it I know I'm a cry when she get deported Colt 45 and two zig-zags Baby that's all we need We can go to the park after dark smoke that tumbleweed As the marijuana burn We can take our turn Singin' them dirty rap songs Stop and hit the bong like Cheech and Chong It still takes from here to Hong Kong Have you ever went ova' a girl's house to f--- But the p----y just ain't no good? (say what) I mean you gettin' upset cuz you can't get her wet Plus you in the wrong neighborhood So you try to play it off and eat the p----y But it take her so long to c-m Then a dude walk in That's her big boyfriend And he asks you where you from (where you from homey?) So you wipe your mouth and you try to explain (I don't bang) You start talkin' real fast (I don't bang) But he already mad cuz you f-----n' his woman So he start beatin' on yo' a-- Now ya clothes all muddy Ya nose all bloody Your d--k was hard but now it's all (what) You thought you had a girl to rock your world Now you still gotta go j--k off Said colt 45 and two zig-zags Baby that's all we need We can go to the park... "

Afroman Album The Good Times Released August 28, 2001 Label Universal Song Tumbleweed

Thank you for contacting Focus on the Family. We appreciate your taking the time to share with us the explicit lyrics from a rap song you recently heard a thirteen-year-old teen listening to. It was touching to learn of your burden for today’s young people. As you are well aware, this generation of young people is faced with a greater discrepancy between the Gospel and culture than any that has preceded it, and there is a literal battle for the minds of our children. We firmly believe that the outcome of this struggle will determine the future of our society, and for this reason we have developed a ministry tool that specifically addresses this need. _Plugged In_, is the title of our monthly magazine designed to assist parents in threading their way through the confusing maze of today's youth culture, including music, media, and other forms of entertainment. You may visit the online version by clicking on the following link: We hope this information proves useful. If you think there is some other way in which we can help, please don't hesitate to ask. May the Lord continue to pour out His blessings upon you and yours, and may He encourage and enable you to persist in your concern for families.


The "Jackson" case

Should Michael Jackson Lose his Children?


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